Disillusioned JW

Joined

• started 27 topics
• posted 2,027 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Disillusioned JW

• 
  49

  Some thoughts on the message of doom

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.

  the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.

  i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Correction: In my prior post, by "... those on side of the street ..." I meant "... those on one side of the street ...".
• 
  49

  Some thoughts on the message of doom

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.

  the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.

  i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Fisherman, please elaborate your concept of the angels directing you to the homes of people who might respond. Do you perceive yourself as getting a mental impression from angels to go to specific homes, instead of all of the ones that were allotted to you in field service (such as those on side of the street) pertaining to the territory card ?
  
• 
  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  In answer to the hypothetical question of this topic thread, my answer is "Who knows? There is no way for any living human to know for certain (if hypothetically the human dead are conscious)." That is because the Bible teaches multiple views of the state of the dead and numerous other religions have other views, and even if one of those views is correct (about the dead being conscious) there is no way to determine which of those views is correct. There is even the view of reincarnation, including the idea of being reincarnated as a nonhuman animal, or a plant, or something else. [Granted there are reports of near death experiences in which people think they experienced an afterlife. There also people who think they recall having one or more past lives. And, there are people who think they received a message from a spirit realm. But there is no conclusive proof that a spirit being has contacted anyone, nor that any spirit realm even exists.]

  Since even if dead humans are conscious in some form, no human can prove what kind of existence such formerly living humans have. Therefore, it is best not dwell on it to much, other than attempt to live a good moral and ethic life which respects life (at least sentient life). If hypothetically there is an afterlife for humans, hopefully deceased humans won't be punished for eating animals, or for intentionally killing those animals which are considered pests in human habitations and in crop fields.

  Correction of my prior post: Where I wrote ".... the dead but actually impossible to do so.' ... 'A new theology developed ..." I should have wrote ".... the dead but actually impossible to do so. A new theology developed ...".
• 
  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Thanks peacefulpete for what you said about John 3:13 including a metaphor.
  

  Readers, in agreement with Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (NKJV), Psalms 146:4 (which is not a part of wisdom literature) says the following.

  "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
  In that very day his plans perish."

  In a post in a different topic thread I said in part the following.

  'The Bible thus expresses a range of views of what happens to humans after their bodies die, and in regards to whether humans have an immortal component or not. Furthermore, when it says or suggests there is an immortal component, it also states competing views of whether it is conscious or not. These observations are further mentioned in another book I own, one called THE OXFORD COMPANION TO THE BIBLE, Edited by Metzger and Coogan. This book is copyright 1993. Note some of what it says, in the following.
  
  The entry of "Afterlife and Immortality" "consists of two articles on views of life and death within the historical communities of Ancient Israel and Second Temple Judaism and Early Christianity." Some of things said in the first article of that entry say the following.
  
  'Israelite views of the afterlife underwent substantial changes during the first millennium BCE, as concepts popular during the preexlic period eventually came to be rejected by the religious leadership of the exilic and postexilic communities, and new theological stances replaced them. ...
  
  Because many elements of preexilic beliefs and practices concerning the dead were eventually repudiated, the Hebrew Bible hardly discusses preexilic concepts at all ....
  
  Like all cultures in the ancient Near East, the Israelites believed that persons continued to exist after *death. It was thought that following death, one's spirit went down to a land below the earth, most often called Sheol, but sometimes merely "Earth," or "the Pit (see hell). In the preexilic period, there was no notion of a judgment of the dead based on their actions during life, nor is there any evidence for a belief that the righteous dead go to live in God's presence. ...
  
  The exact relationship between the body of a dead person and the spirit that lived on in Sheol is unclear, since the Bible does not discuss this issue. ... during the late eighth and seventh centuries' [BCE] there were 'laws against necromancy' which 'assume not that it was impossible to summon the dead from Sheol but that it was inappropriate. ...
  
  During the exile, when the "Yahweh alone" party finally came to control the religious leadership of Judah, a further step was taken', and several texts from that period 'suggest that it is not only improper to consult the dead but actually impossible to do so.' [Note that the WT also teaches that only Yahweh is God (at least in the full sense) and it teaches that it is both improper and impossible to consult the dead - except possibly those they consider to be resurrected anointed JWs in heaven.] 'A new theology developed that argued there is no conscious existence in Sheol at all. At death all contact with the world, and even with God, comes to an end.' [This is what the WT teaches, except they don't say it is a new biblical theory, and furthermore they teach the hope of a resurrection.]
  
  The second article in the entry describes how the Jews, "owing to the widespread influence of the platonic idea of the immortality of the soul (see Human Person)" came to believe in immortality and resurrection and that there would be "reward or punishment" for those who die, and that those ideas were adopted by Christianity. That article also says that such ideas created a tension between ideas both in Judaism and in Christianity.
  
  The entry/article called "Human Person" says the following.
  
  "The Hebrew word for the human being is nepeš, which among its wide range of meanings connotes both flesh and soul as inseparable components of a person." But how [can] they be viewed as inseparable, since later on the article says the following. "At death, the person's flesh dies, and the soul dwells in Sheol, a shadowy place for the dead (see Afterlife and Immortality; Hell)." Perhaps the explanation lies in the next two sentences of the article which say the following. "There is no notion in what may be called orthodox Israelite religion of a separate existence for the soul after death. Death is accepted as a natural part of the life cycle, but it is not welcomed, for the person who dies loses his or her being." After referring to Psalms 30:9 the paragraph later by says the following. "Death is thus perceived to be the end of all sentient life. [ " ]
  
  Later the article says the following. "In the New Testament, the still prominent idea of bodily resurrection (see especially the resurrection narratives in the Gospels and also 1 Cor. 15) implies that the soul and body are inseparable, but the notion of a human being composed of a separate soul and body slowly gains ascendancy."
  
  Note that parts of the Bible teach that humans do have an immortal soul, but that some of those parts teach the soul of the human dead is unconscious whereas some other verses teach that is conscious. Furthermore, note that other parts of the Bible teach that humans do not have an immortal soul at all.
  
  The above content to me is enormous further proof that the Bible's theological teachings are not the word of God, but merely human ideas of theology, and that such human ideas evolved over the centuries. The Bible are the words (and ideas) of humans (including conflicting views between various human writers of the Bible, not just pertaining to the topics mentioned above) and not the Word of God. Since the Bible is not the word of God, of any god, humans should not feel obligated by the Bible to believe anything the Bible teaches. People thus should feel free to decide which teachings of the Bible, if any, are correct - just as we would do for any nonreligious secular writing or teaching. I encourage believers in the Bible to question what the Bible teaches.'

  Everything above in this post, except for the first paragraph of this post, is a copy of part of what posted in an earlier post in a different topic thread (plus some corrections in brackets).

  In addition to what I quoted from the Oxford book in that earlier post of mine, the Oxford book (on page 16) also says the following (which includes parts of what I quoted earlier).

  "Necromancy was particularly opposed by the religious group that supported the worship of Yahweh alone. The popular views of afterlife and the dead came under increasing attack during the late eighth and seventh centuries. The laws against necromancy date to this period, and a number of outright attacks and satires on the older ideas about the nature of existence in Sheol appear in the literature of this time (e.g., Isa. 8.19-22; 14.9-11).

  ... These laws apparently did not have the desired effect on the Judean population." The next three sentences of the article says the following (which I partially quoted in my earlier article). 'During the exile, when the "Yahweh alone" party finally came to control the religious leadership of Judah, a further step was taken. Several texts appearing to date from the exile and postexilic periods suggest that it is not only improper to consult the dead but actually impossible to do so.' ... 'A new theology developed that argued there is no conscious existence in Sheol at all. At death all contact with the world, and even with God, comes to an end.'

  That quote from the scholarly Oxford book agrees completely with what I said in an earlier post in this topic thread. Notice that it says when there came to be Jewish religious leaders who preached that "Yahweh alone" should be worshiped that 'theology developed that argued there is no conscious existence in Sheol at all. At death all contact with the world, and even with God, comes to an end.' That view was apparently started by the "Yahweh alone" group of religious leaders. The WT, which stresses worship of only Yahweh/Jehovah, also says that the dead are completely unconscious. The WT even says the ones who have died are completely dead - except for those whom they say have experienced a resurrection to life in heaven.

  Note the scholarly book by Oxford indicates that the "Yahweh alone" religious leaders (ones who supported worship of Yahweh alone) wanted people to stop making efforts to contact to dead, and that after those efforts (which consisted of laws that are stated in the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus) failed, a new theology was developed which said that the dead are completely unconscious. It thus appears that the later Jewish religious teaching (apparently by the "Yahweh alone" religious leaders) was created to convince Jews to no longer attempt to communicate with the dead.
• 
  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  I agree that according to John 3:13 the way to resurrection to life in heaven only became available till after the resurrection (alleged) of Jesus. The textual context of the verse is of before Jesus died and went to heaven (allegedly went to heaven), thus the text gives the impression that Jesus said the Son of Man ascended to heaven before Jesus was born (namely, allegedly before the Son of Man descended to be born as Jesus as a human). [Perhaps that verse is an anachronistic comment by the writer of the gospel, and thus that the writer should have used different wording to fit the temporal context of the rest of his gospel account.] But for many years as a JW and as an inactive JW (and ex-JW) the part, which seemingly is about the Son of Man having ascended before he descended, was very puzzling to me. That is because me, when I had thought of the ascension of Jesus to heaven, I thought that it (according to the Bible) only happened after Jesus became resurrected (according to the Bible). I did not notice any verses in the Bible which spoke of Jesus (or a divine Son of Man) being on Earth prior to Jesus being conceived in the womb of Mary (according to the Bible).
  

  Granted the WT teaches that some of the OT statements about Jehovah coming down to Earth were of Jesus coming to Earth as the representative of Jehovah. Likewise the WT teaches that some of the OT statements about the angel of Jehovah coming down to Earth were of Jesus coming to Earth as the representative of Jehovah. But for many years I never interpreted the verse in John 3:13 being about that, since the OT does not state that Jesus descended (such as having descended in BCE times) and it does not state that the Son of Man descended. But I now think that some 1st century Christians (and maybe some Jews living before the 1st century CE, ones who contemplated the arrival of the Messiah) might have interpreted parts of the OT mentions of YHWH coming down to Earth as being about a divine being who was not Yahweh in the sense of God the Father. I noticed that in some of the Psalms it is hard to identify which being is said to be speaking in a given verse; it seems like the identity of the 'speaker' changes from one verse to another in the same Psalm, without the change being explicitly stated/named in the Psalm. That makes such Psalms confusing to me. [I later learned that sometimes one of the 'speakers' might be a human chorus, or a human king sitting on 'David's throne'.] Some of those Psalms seem to be partly about the Messiah and partly about YHWH God. Maybe that is how the idea got started. I can also see how readers could have interpreted those verses as indicating that there are two divine persons called YHWH, and thus get a binitarian idea or a trinitarian idea.
  
• 
  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Correction: In an earlier post I said the following. "Fisherman, though many Christians teach that the book of Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon ...", but I should have said "Biahi, though many Christians teach that the book of Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon ...".
• 
  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Correction: When I made my prior post I was in a rush since I had to soon start getting ready to go to work. Where I said "As a result, just because a book in the Bible in the Bible is wisdom literature, that mean it is atheistic" I meant instead to say "As a result, just because a book in the Bible is wisdom literature, that does not mean it is atheistic."
• 
  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Sea Breeze though you are dismissing Ecclesiastes as "is part of the "WIS[D]OM LITERATURE" in the OT" and "is written from a carnal point of view, same as an atheist" the book actually doesn't teach atheism (as much as I might wish it did). For, example verses 7 and 9 from the same chapter 9 state belief in God. That chapter is actually expressing a Jewish religious view in Judah that there is no afterlife at all. Perhaps it was the same view as the Sadducees whom as you know denied the resurrection of the dead and the existence of spirits and angels. As you know, the Sadducees ran the Jewish temple of YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah in the second temple period and worshipped Yahweh, offering sacrifices to Yahweh. A scholarly book I quoted from months ago says that at a certain time in the history of biblical Judaism there were religious teachers and worshipers of Yahweh who taught the people that there was no afterlife at all. The book says those teachers were trying to refute the idea of other religious Jews. peacefulpete is correct in saying that there was a diversity of Jewish religious views about an afterlife, but his post on page two of this topic thread left out the view that some Jewish worshipers of Yahweh believed there was no afterlife at all.

  The book of Proverbs is also wisdom literature, yet it also states beliefs in God, it even says that wisdom comes from God. As a result, just because a book in the Bible in the Bible is wisdom literature, that mean it is atheistic. Atheistic books didn't make it in the Hebrew Scriptures, scriptures which the NT says are inspired of God.
  

  Fisherman, though many Christians teach that the book of Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon, a number of modern critical scholars say it was not written by him, despite the extant copies of the book saying it was written by him.
• 
  10

  Wise counsel for JW's in latest WT

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  june 2023 study watchtower p. 13, par 15 - “we will not be fooled if we “make sure of or, “test” all things.”...we need to test what we hear or what we read to determine whether it is genuine.....instead of naively accepting what others the org say, we use our thinking ability to compare what we read or what we hear with what the bible and jehovah’s organization say.”.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  We should also put the Bible and the WT literature to the test by comparing what they say with what modern science says (including what modern science says about evolution).
  
• 
  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Sea Breeze said ".... a man who walked out of a tomb as he claimed he would ...." (in reference to Jesus), but there is no report in the Bible at all of a human (or even angel) seeing Jesus walk out of his tomb! There is thus no report in the Bible at all of anyone witnessing the resurrection of Jesus (though there is a report which makes the claim of people seeing Lazarus walk of his tomb). If anyone can prove otherwise please state the verse or verses.

  Furthermore, in a number of reports in the Gospel books of Bible of people allegedly seeing Jesus after his alleged resurrection, some of them say some of the disciples supposedly seeing such did not believe (presumably didn't believe that they actually saw Jesus alive after his death). Some of the reports in the Bible also say that the disciples did not recognize him at first despite having a personal two way conversation with him. The long addition to the Gospel of Mark (which I think Sea Breeze believes is authentic scripture) says that Jesus appeared in a different form after his supposed resurrection. These accounts thus leave room for the possibility that in the accounts of a purported post-resurrection Jesus, the live man allegedly seen by the disciples was not actually Jesus, but rather a a man whom the disciples mistook for Jesus.

  [In contrast the Gnostic Gospel of Peter (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter ) has an account alleging that Jesus was seen walking out of the tomb, and that his cross was seen both following (walking?) out of the tomb and talking! I don't think Sea Breeze believes in that account as being accurate, but if he does believe that Gnostic account then I invite him to tell us such.]

  Another possible interpretation of people thinking they saw the Jesus alive after his death, is that they merely had hallucinatory visions of seeing him as such. In the case of the Apostle Paul, he even claims to have seen a vision of the resurrected Jesus Christ, though according to what he wrote he didn't think the vision was a hallucination.
  

  Regarding Bible verses about the dead being conscious or unconscious, don't forget Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (NKJV) which says the following.
  

  "5 For the living know that they will die;
  But the dead know nothing,
  And they have no more reward,
  For the memory of them is forgotten.
  6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
  Nevermore will they have a share
  In anything done under the sun."

  Those two biblical verses are 100% in harmony with atheistic scientific naturalism. Those two biblical verses are completely true. Verse 6 even entails the idea that there never will be (and never has been) a resurrection of the dead to life "under the sun" (on Earth).

  Ecclesiastes 9:10 (NKJV) says the following. "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." That verse (with the word "grave" used in the NKJV translation instead of "sheol") is also completely true and 100% in harmony with atheistic scientific naturalism.